Indie freemium — what is your stance on that?
If an indie app/website/service etc you regularly use has paid features that you find useful, do you pay for them? Provided pricing is reasonable, of course.
This question was triggered by my constant disappointment to see fellow makers saying $0.5-$5/month are deal-breakers for a free-to-use product with useful (but optional) paid extra perks.
I mean we all gladly contribute to the community, but let's not forget we all have bills to pay and in the end projects should be sustainable. When did we start forgetting that goes for any project, not just our own? Aren't we suppose to better understand how things are and be the first to support each other in making good things?
Later edit for clarification: "Indie" in the thread title strictly refers to the maker(s) of the product, not the targeted customer base.
This is an important question.
As indie makers, we're constantly looking to improve our revenue flow and support our passion.
My stance is pretty clear (Makerlog Gold haha) - I think it's a great model to allow for inclusiveness and also have a certain sense of financial stability (if people love your product, they will pay to see it succeed).
currently, I am only actively paying a subscription for one app (bear), because the value and price is just amazing (i would still count it in as kinda indie).
I'm much more open to one time purchases, though I know how unsustainable they are (from my own stats). But still, as a student, I don't have so much money to spend on applications.
I think apps like Setapp (appflix) could be really good, though it currently is only for apps that have a mac app too. Though I don't know how much makers make with that service. (Still there are apps on there for years now, so it seems like it is a good deal for them)
This is a good question! Personally, if the product is good value/worth it I am happy to pay but I will use free products wherever possible and generally think quite hard before signing up for a subscription. I don't think of indie services any differently from services from big companies - it's all about the product.
Recently with Downtime Monkey I've had people say that the cheapest Pro plan ($2.88/month to monitor 30 sites with Pro featues) is too much for individuals/small businesses who just want to monitor one website even though they want the Pro features.
So I'm considering a cheaper Pro plan to monitor just one site with Pro features (even though the free plan allows monitoring of 60 sites but with no Pro features) and I'm trying to come up with a price for this but have a lot of questions:
Is $0.50/month cheap enough that it would get people on board who would otherwise not pay?
Would $0.40/month or even less make any difference or will people who don't like subscriptions simply not pay no matter how little the price?
Do yearly subscriptions suit people better who prefer one-off payments but don't like monthly payments?
Oh, great answer, thanks Ryan.
There's a bias for indie products, users expect free or almost free because it was made by one person or a very small team. For some reason many just don't realize that even as sole makers we do have our own expenses with making and maintaining that product, like software and hosting. Not even mentioning the hours spent working or offering support.
Regarding the cheaper Pro plan, I think it would be a good idea, or at least totally worth testing. Even I'm more willing to get onboard when there's scalability, the option to try for a single project and then upgrade if I'm happy.
"Would $0.40/month or even less make any difference or will people who don't like subscriptions simply not pay no matter how little the price?" I'm starting to think that there are indeed some that just refuse subscription model for some reason. Question is do we really want them as clients? If yes, a prepaid option could be the answer. If not… not :)
"Do yearly subscriptions suit people better who prefer one-off payments but don't like monthly payments?" That's a very interesting question. For me yearly is still a subscription, with the difference that it might be discounted compared to month-to-month. I haven't thought about it being more suitable for those that prefer one-time payments.
Thanks for the reply and for answering the questions I had - it's useful to get another opinion on this!
I'm experimenting with lots of payment tier options on from $1 to $10,000 http://patreon.com/yosun
@alina I used to do that quite frequently totaling thousands per month - however have recently cut back on costs to just a few - it might have to be just Creative Suite and Unity Pro. I think the answers depends on how money fluid someone is - when I used to contribute to many subscriptions, it was when money wasn't as tight.
The thing is, for the most part makers are producers not consumers.
Any products targeting the indie maker community are going to struggle to sell unless they show a very clear benefit. .
@fajarsiddiq my strategy when making maker tools is mainly to solve my own maker problems.. if it does that, score. and if somehow i productize it and others want it to…
Not that this thread needs another answer, but since some of the preexisting answers veer off track a little…
To answer your question simply: If there were an indie product/service/website that had valuable features I felt I couldn't live without, I would absolutely pay for it. There aren't any 'indie' apps/services I pay for right now, though. This is mostly a budgeting issue, as I'm someone who simply has to run an extremely tight budget at the moment. (Otherwise, in theory, I'd love to be generous and support as many people as I can).
To address a larger issue: I fully endorse the idea that 'makers-need-to-eat-too', and I think it's an important narrative/message, especially in a world where so many of us are used to getting things for free (music, games, productivity tools, etc.). That said, I don't think this narrative is something anyone should float a business on. Even if all people who understood that indie makers/bootstrappers/non-VC-funded founders have bills to pay actually paid, it still might not make a product/business sustainable. At least not if you're only targeting indie makers as a customer base. But I can't say of course - it depends upon how many people are paying, and what profits are, and how much time/money it takes to run a specific service/product + pay for, you know, life expenses.
Other thoughts: When it comes to indie products, it seems as though a lot of people rely heavily on indie makers as a customer base, and I don't think that's the best plan. It's a start, for sure. It's a community where someone can find initial users and interest. But makers are pretty resourceful - they'll often find a free version of what they need. Indie makers are also very often strapped for money. Outside of our little niche is a huge, aggressive world of people selling things and vying for attention and money and doing anything (content, youtube, instagram, facebook, ads, reaching out to influencers, etc., etc., etc.). I think too many indie makers treat ProductHunt and twitter-network-effects and "building in public" as marketing and call it a day. If money is the goal, I think someone has to take advantage of everything they can. I think we have to put into perspective what it is we're making, and how many people might actually care about it.
Other other thoughts: I think a lot about pricing psychology, and try to keep my eye on what people are paying for, and what people seem averse to paying for. I also look at myself as an example. I pay for things like Airtable and Notion, not only because I can't imagine working without them, but because they're so useful that I'd probably try to pay them even if they were free. I think that level of overwhelming usefulness is one to shoot for. Airtable and Notion use a freemium model, but I think that unless you really get people hooked, and really make people "see the light" so to speak when it comes to how beneficial your product is, it's a tough model. I don't have data to back this up, but sometimes I think that it's less about the actual price point (within a certain range at least), and more about how much someone simply needs what a product is offering. Whether someone is using Airtable and gets to try a lot of functionality and realize it's potential, or is taking a peek at a site like NomadList (perhaps the prime indie-maker, "ask people to pay" example) which gives you a pretty limited experience but shows enough to make you see what you're missing, the value proposition/use case needs to be very clear, and very strong.
The thread definitely needs more answers, especially like this one. Thanks, Alex!
One mention, though (for what you said in "Other thoughts"): my question was not about products targeted specifically to makers… "Indie" in the thread title strictly refers to the maker(s) of the product, not the targeted customer base.
A little off-topic: I'm considering paying for Notion too, right now I'm on the free plan, heavily stretching every bit :)
@alina No problem!
I wasn't sure whether or not you meant indie-makers-as-customers, but I think the points apply all the same. In general, targeting indie makers is something I've seen a lot of products (made by indie makers) do. But as a more general point, sometimes I think people can fall into targeting niches as a way to avoid other marketing channels (not saying that's what you're doing), even though niches can obviously be powerful (depends on the niche, though!).
I wish business ran on people's good will and generosity, and sometimes I wish it were as simple [as pay for product] --> [get to use product] (but sometimes I don't), but we live in a weird world. If you're a baker, your product is still pastries and bread, but if you're a musician, your product is…sort of music? But sort of not? There are so many facets to brands and monetization now. And even a bakery would probably be best off putting out lots of content on instagram and youtube :)
I pretty quickly hit the free limit with Notion because I started using it to organize EVERYTHING. I don't love the spreadsheet formatting, but otherwise I've found it to be really useful. It's also a Google Docs replacement for me - I write all of my content inside of it, and I'm an organizational freak - so it's worth it. Airtable on the other hand…I love it, but eek it's pretty expensive.
@alex I added a clarification in the question after I replied you. @jivings also answered based on "indie" as targeted clients, but it took me quite a bit to realize that keeping the thread title short actually made it fuzzy. My question was not about products targeted specifically for makers, but products made by indie makers.
Yes, your answer applies, and I thank you again for it.
"And even a bakery would probably be best off putting out lots of content on instagram and youtube :)"
Yeah, that's the reason nobody knows about my projects. I just can't do social media, PH etc. I have only one project on PH, which I added intentionally on a Friday evening (!), just because a friend wanted to hunt it, and I was too embarrassed for people to actually notice my project so soon after launch.
As a kind of workaround I just make the projects, grow them, and sell them after 1-3 years.
"I pretty quickly hit the free limit with Notion because I started using it to organize EVERYTHING."
I totally get that :D I've only been recently using Notion, since collaborating with @sergio on Makerlog. But now I can't imagine my workflow without it. To put it simply, Notion was the only app in which I didn't dread adding things. I'm considering the paid plan to do just what you did, log and write everything (including transferring tasks I still have in Trello and notes I have elsewhere). Notion + the Telegram bot to log tasks on Makerlog are for me spot on.
@alina Oh got ya got ya!
I debate with myself nearly every day about what might be necessary for something to succeed (or to succeed in general). Current popular wisdom says that if we're trying to succeed as entrepreneurs, we have to be everywhere, put out content, get people's attention, even build a personal brand - because people often buy into people. But this advice often overlooks how comfortable we may or not be with doing this, or our confidence levels. It also presumably overlooks cases where a product "speaks for itself" in a large way. It's easy for someone to say "just put yourself out there", but we're human, and sometimes things can feel a little uneasy or embarrassing or whatever. It's hard to say what exactly we should push ourselves to do, or how far outside our comfort zone we should go.
Sorry…just rambling and thinking out loud. But if you relate to any of what I just said, I understand. I'm sort of the same way. Right now I like to just work/build quietly.
Being able to organize writing in Notion is what really sold me. But I had to come up with my own little workflow (https://alexhayworth.com/organize-and-write-blog-posts-in-notion/). Nothing brilliant, but figuring out a workflow tipped me away from relying on google docs. I just love how I can have all of my work everywhere, any time, and brainstorm and write and organize and plan, all in the same place. I still use Airtable, and still use Google Sheets when I need hardcore spreadsheet functions, but Notion definitely cleaned up the way I work.
@alex Oh, this so deserves a topic of its own… I'd very much like to elaborate. You are the first person I talk to that has a similar approach.
[ @sergio Where is inkfeed.co?? We need a place to talk about stuff like this 😁 ]
But this advice often overlooks how comfortable we may or not be with doing this, or our confidence levels. [..]It's hard to say what exactly we should push ourselves to do, or how far outside our comfort zone we should go.
Exactly! One tweet and it already felt weird for me. I gave up, that is my line, I just cannot do social. I just manage to grow my projects with good content. It takes much longer, but in the long run I think an organic growth is much more stable than something that depends on social media. Or I just might be the fox that couldn't reach the grapes, so she said they were sour. :D
Sorry…just rambling and thinking out loud. But if you relate to any of what I just said, I understand. I'm sort of the same way. Right now I like to just work/build quietly.
Like I said, you are the first person I talk to that builds quietly, like me. So I really do relate.
@alina I agree - there's a lot to talk about!
I've had the same experience. I run into that weird feeling every day, usually when writing things that are more personal, that I haven't put anywhere yet. I get it every time I post something a little more exposed/vulnerable on instagram or twitter, too. And beside that, I think that sometimes I get tired of feeling like I need to keep up with everyone, and I just want to quiet my mind, hunker down, do the work and not talk about it.
Do you rely heavily on SEO/SERPS?
Or I just might be the fox that couldn't reach the grapes, so she said they were sour. ----- SAME. Sometimes I wonder if this is me.
@alex And beside that, I think that sometimes I get tired of feeling like I need to keep up with everyone, and I just want to quiet my mind, hunker down, do the work and not talk about it.
+1. It baffles me how everybody else seems to be able to keep up with everyone else, while for me after 2 weeks got so exhausting I altogether stopped. Not because I'm not interested in some people, but because trying to follow makes me feel drained and unproductive after a while.
Do you rely heavily on SEO/SERPS?
Well, no. I don't do special things. I try to maintain good quality content. Long hours of research, sometimes it pays off, other times not so much, but overall all my content projects have had a similar growth trajectory/timeline. Also, I use WordPress. As much as I dread it (lots to talk about that too), from a SEO point of view it's the best choice. WordPress + Yoast SEO plugin, that's all.
@alina Most days I feel like I'm trying to drink from a fire hose. I read and read and there's never an end. Especially on twitter. I've yet to strike a good balance of keeping some finger on the pulse of things (and by this I guess I mean the industries/ideas that are represented by who I follow, especially when it comes to tech/start-ups), and keeping my own deliberate focus. Right now it absolutely leaves me feeling unproductive. I feel like I always have to remind myself to return to first principles and just do the work.
I use Wordpress too :). There's a lot that I wish were different about it, but I found a theme I like to work with and tweak, which makes some things easier. And one of the things I'm working on now I hope can leverage SEO for, but I assume it will involve a lot of trial and error, and lots of hours put into writing content. Wordpress + Yoast + quality content seems to be the bread and butter.
I read and read and there's never an end. Especially on twitter. I've yet to strike a good balance of keeping some finger on the pulse of things (and by this I guess I mean the industries/ideas that are represented by who I follow, especially when it comes to tech/start-ups), and keeping my own deliberate focus.
^ That. I'm frequently asking myself if being quasi-oblivious to news and updates makes me too ignorant to make good projects. But so far things worked out ok.
I use Wordpress too :). There's a lot that I wish were different about it, but I found a theme I like to work with and tweak, which makes some things easier. And one of the things I'm working on now I hope can leverage SEO for, but I assume it will involve a lot of trial and error, and lots of hours put into writing content. Wordpress + Yoast + quality content seems to be the bread and butter.
The WP + Yoast + content combination worked so far for me. The results are not immediate, but I always get steady traffic increase and 90%+ traffic from organic search. I make my own themes (and arguably spend way too much time on that 😊) and add custom post types, metaboxes and such.
@alina I'm frequently asking myself if being quasi-oblivious to news and updates makes me too ignorant to make good projects
Wow, yes, this, me too. I try to follow people I can learn from, and so those people are often spouting about entrepreneurship and business and all of these supposed paradigm shifts to come. But it often gives me a kind of FOMO. It also, to be honest, takes a bite out of my confidence. Because here I am trying to start in many ways, and many of the people I follow, well, put simply, they're already successful. And when someone your own age or younger is (seemingly) casually running a successful company and investing in things and giving talks and apparently also holding their sh*t together, it makes you doubt whether you could ever do that yourself, or even do 50% of it. I try to never compare myself, but I'm human, too…and I have lots of anxiety, haha.
As someone who's always been non-technical, Wordpress has been a good friend to me so far. I see more tech-savvy people ragging on it a lot, but, no one can deny that (at least for what it does) it works! And one of its greatest strengths for less technical people like me is the amount of community/documentation around it. If you run into a problem, you know that 99% of the time a solution is a google search away. And I'll have to report back about my SEO results. There's a ton of good SEO info out there, but I'm going to start with simply creating great, thorough content. I do however (as a side note) wonder how voice queries (through Alexa, etc.) are going to impact SEO/SERPS, and what ranks.
Side note: So much to talk about here (which is why I've rambled a bit). One project I'm working on is going to be a site for entrepreneurs (tools, guides…but hopefully done better/organized better than I've seen elsewhere), and I'm thinking I should maybe have a simple forum section so that conversations like this can not only happen (assuming there will be people to make them happen 😂), but be organized so that the wisdom can be extracted and easily found. Still kinda stuck on what to call it though, which isn't a good place to be stuck 😬.
p.s. - I checked out your Brutalist themes and I love them! Especially the Glitch theme!
But it often gives me a kind of FOMO. It also, to be honest, takes a bite out of my confidence. [..] I try to never compare myself, but I'm human, too…and I have lots of anxiety, haha.
All I can say to this is +1. FOMO is part of my daily routine, yet I'm still not able to do things differently. At this point I'm not even sure I want to… I'm probably missing opportunities or possible revenue this way, but in the end my sanity comes first. :)
One thing I forgot to mention in my previous reply with SEO is that I make all my projects as for me, not thinking I'm going to sell them. I do paced growth, not artificial one as to sell the project quickly. I only sell because of lack of time to maintain them.
About WP: WP is kind of the equivalent of Adobe, holding monopoly. And it will hold it because it doesn't have a peer, and what you said, extensive documentation, community, an incredible amount of users etc. But it's a poorly built software. Yes, I know that PHP in 2003 was not what it is today, but a flawed base cannot make a good software, no matter how much you patch it. WP is good for users, but it's a pain for developers, especially when you have to offer support too. For example it took me a couple of days in 2014 to learn and create a commercial Tumblr theme. The learning curve for developing for WP, even a theme not a plugin is totally different.
Side note: So much to talk about here (which is why I've rambled a bit).
Indeed, much to talk about. I know we completely deviated from the thread's subject, but I can't seem to let this conversation go 😁 For talking & ideas, @sergio is now building inkfeed.co.
One project I'm working on is going to be a site for entrepreneurs (tools, guides…but hopefully done better/organized better than I've seen elsewhere) […]
That would be nice! So far I failed to find a project like this which feels inclusive for a quiet builder. Was thinking at some point to build my own, but gave up on this idea because I thought nobody would be interested.
Still kinda stuck on what to call it though, which isn't a good place to be stuck 😬.
Oof, yes, the naming… I'm the same, I can't start working without having a name and a domain. Idk, it serves as motivation, or it's just OCD, but for me a project name is very important, even if I'm just an user, not the maker.
p.s. - I checked out your Brutalist themes and I love them! Especially the Glitch theme!
Thanks! I did Brutalist Themes for fun and it's probably the one project I resonate with the most. I really wish I had more time to expand it.
@alina At this point I'm not even sure I want to… I'm probably missing opportunities or possible revenue this way, but in the end my sanity comes first.
Pretty much how I've been feeling lately. As I've gotten deeper into start-ups and business and tech and marketing and just the huge world of people starting/making things, so too have I gotten better at knowing myself, and how I feel. And sometimes there are too many stimuli, the FOMO is too much, and it all makes me scatterbrained. I have to remind myself that it's okay to just chill out and hunker down, and keep putting the hammer to the metal as it were. I also have to remind myself that for all of the people opining and tweeting about what it is they're building, not all of those people are building actual, sustainable businesses…which is pretty much my personal end goal.
I do paced growth, not artificial one as to sell the project quickly. I only sell because of lack of time to maintain them.
I think this is a good approach. I know people do it the other way, and effectively try to inflate whatever it is they've built so they can flip it (I've never really been a person who can do this…but some people are just sharks, haha)…but I think it's best to build things in an authentic, organic way, like you're talking about. That way the work done is better, and as a result, in the end, you can probably sell it for more.
WP is kind of the equivalent of Adobe, holding monopoly.
This is a great way of putting it. I know that some services are really gunning for those looking for an all-in-one, lower-tech website solution (like Squarespace…they've even been running ads on TV), but for all of WP's flaws, it seems it's still the solution that offers the most control without coding a site from scratch. Sometimes it feels like a boxcar that's been duct-taped together, and I wish I could make things from scratch and do all sorts of fancy things, but another thing I have to try to remind myself of is "work with what you have." Otherwise I get a little wide-eyed and crazy 😂
For talking & ideas, @sergio is now building inkfeed.co.
I'm excited to see what he's building!
So far I failed to find a project like this which feels inclusive for a quiet builder. Was thinking at some point to build my own, but gave up on this idea because I thought nobody would be interested.
You're right. It sometimes feels like there's no place for people just building quietly, and for people who maybe can't keep up with talk about like, frameworks or javascript libraries. Every maker community I've checked out has been welcoming, and people are willing to help, but I can't help but think of the massive number of people out there who want to be entrepreneurs, but who might be scared away by the tech-oriented groups, and might just get overwhelmed, and not know where to start. There are tons of influencers these days talking about entrepreneurship and hustle, etc., but no one is ever offering a toolbox or actionable steps beyond "hey buy my $2000 dollar e-course and make a million in three days!" so that people can get their feet wet. A lot of people act as though if you want to be an entrepreneur, you should be able to figure it all out yourself…but I think that's a bunch of bullsh*t. Most people find some help along the way. And, beside all of this, this particular project was something I was just building (namely a huge, somewhat elaborate Airtable base) for myself to use, and figured that maybe I should turn it into a site in some way, and add some useful content. Help myself learn, help other people learn = win-win.
I'm the same, I can't start working without having a name and a domain. Idk, it serves as motivation, or it's just OCD, but for me a project name is very important, even if I'm just an user, not the maker.
Are we the same person? 😂 Because I feel this so, so much. I know there's a constant argument for just getting started, and names not mattering, etc…and in a large part I agree. But for me, a name (and words in general) has a certain feel, a certain association. A name can change the way I think about a project and it's identity and purpose completely. A name can even launch me into an existential crisis about "who am I? what am I all about? what am I doing with my life? who do I want to be?", haha. I think my problem with this project is that I want to appeal to people who aren't exactly "in the know" when it comes to maker groups or tech or start-ups, but who would also benefit from something that has more depth than say, a Facebook group about entrepreneurship, wherein people are just shouting "rise & grind" all day (if this works for people though, to each their own). I'd like to find a middle ground, and not be silly, but also not be intimidating.
I have a name right now, from a project I had sort of started and then stopped - "HustleBuddies" - which I don't really love (because I've grown a bit tired of hearing the word 'hustle'), but which in the current state of things, especially on social media where people apparently haven't grown tired of buzzwords like that, it might catch someone's eye. (Then again, I wonder if the people who want to just start something are also tired of those buzzwords >.<). The name isn't exactly me, and so it has definitely launched me into existential territory like I mentioned…but I'm also curious about whether there might be some value in not thinking too much about it. Words are powerful, and they can evoke strong associations and feelings and images, but at the same time, maybe they can morph and take on new identities, depending on what you put in front of people.
Sigh, who knows. In my head there's often a battle around trying to capitalize on things as they are, or going entirely my own way. I've always been the create-my-own-lane type, but sometimes that has left me out in a field, away from where other people (and money) are.
Sorry this was so long! Needed to vent a little I think!"
Are we the same person? 😂
Haha, I got about the same impression a few times.
Sorry this was so long! Needed to vent a little I think!
Np. This is one good example of "Are we the same person?" 😁 You are not the only one needing to vent. Makerlog is the only place where — to my surprise — found people that made this kind of reply exchange possible. This didn't happen for me, I'm new to it and I find it incredible, especially since for me it couldn't have happened at a better time.
And sometimes there are too many stimuli, the FOMO is too much, and it all makes me scatterbrained.
Exactly.
I think this is a good approach. I know people do it the other way, and effectively try to inflate whatever it is they've built so they can flip it (I've never really been a person who can do this…but some people are just sharks, haha)…but I think it's best to build things in an authentic, organic way, like you're talking about. That way the work done is better, and as a result, in the end, you can probably sell it for more.
Yes, the work done is infinitely better. But unfortunately, no, I don't sell for more. Actually caring for a project and growing it organically and paced puts me at a loss compared to those who use "cheats" to rapidly flip. A clone can be done in a few hours, I usually put 1-2k hours in every project (exception some smaller projects). Flipped projects are sold at dumping prices and they drove the market down. Many buyers are uninformed, all they care about is getting a bargain, and they really don't know (or care) that a flipped project is actually worthless. If I show them how many hours of research I do or how many hours I spent on a design or backend customizations, they'd rather believe I'm embellishing to buff de price up, than actually believing I worked my ass off. But I was lucky enough to deal with other types of buyers too over time.
I'm excited to see what he's building!
Not sure if you have time, but he'll be streaming tomorrow live some work. I'm definitely not the best person to explain inkfeed, but from what I understand it will be an ideas-centric project with multiple types of user generated content (ideas, questions, feedback, submissions etc), as well as selective news aggregator. The user added content format is designed to encourage discussions like this one, and that's why I'm very eager to see it live. :)
Every maker community I've checked out has been welcoming, and people are willing to help, but I can't help but think of the massive number of people out there who want to be entrepreneurs, but who might be scared away by the tech-oriented groups, and might just get overwhelmed, and not know where to start.
Though I'm not a full dev, I don't shy away from tech up to a point. But yes, I would like very much to find a more "relaxed" corner where everything is not targeted on devs. It's nice to feel welcome, but it would be even nicer to feel at home :)
I have a name right now, from a project I had sort of started and then stopped - "HustleBuddies"
Nonono, please no. Please don't use "hustle". Or even buddies. Sorry to be blunt, but when I hear/see "hustle" it takes me just 0.0000001s to close the tab :) On a more serious note, the name depends on the targeted user base. If you want to target quiet-building makers, or makers closer to your viewpoint don't use buzzwords. Actually buzzwords are just buzzwords, with limited lifetime, a no-no for naming a serious project. It's easier to find a good name for a project in which you are part of the targeted "audience", because you know how your users think. Choose something you find a good fit, ignore the noise.
Sigh, who knows. In my head there's often a battle around trying to capitalize on things as they are, or going entirely my own way. I've always been the create-my-own-lane type, but sometimes that has left me out in a field, away from where other people (and money) are.
Oof… it's like reading my own thoughts 😁 But actually in my case, the battle ended when I found Makerlog. And the "my own way" was victorious. I might not get rich, but as long as I'm ramen profitable, I'm ok with that. I don't have extravagant things on my "to buy" list.
@alina Makerlog is the only place where — to my surprise — found people that made this kind of reply exchange possible
I think a big part of this is that here, every one is friendly. A lot of other places, at least those focused on entrepreneurship, like subreddits, can be pretty toxic. Even hackernews can be pretty brutal it seems. What I like about this 'maker culture' so to speak is that everyone is simply supportive, I think in part because everyone is up front about the fact that they're just trying to build things and figure it out.
Many buyers are uninformed, all they care about is getting a bargain, and they really don't know (or care) that a flipped project is actually worthless.
Maybe it was a little naive of me to suggest you might be able to sell for more given all the work you put in. I say that in part because I used to talk a whole lot to someone who made/makes a substantial living off of building niche/affiliate sites of his own (while using a lot of black hat techniques), as well as buying and flipping sites. And he would often tell me about how salty people would be with him when he was trying to buy a site, because - to use his words - he was always "lowballing people and trying to get a deal." He had no shame about it. I almost respected how ruthless he was. I just don't know that I could be like that.
an ideas-centric project with multiple types of user generated content (ideas, questions, feedback, submissions etc), as well as selective news aggregator. The user added content format is designed to encourage discussions like this one
That sounds really great. I'll check out his stream if I'm around! I like dropping in to support people while streaming :)
I don't shy away from tech up to a point. But yes, I would like very much to find a more "relaxed" corner where everything is not targeted on devs.
That's pretty much what I have in mind. I'm not averse to tech either, and I think that anyone who wants to be an entrepreneur in this day and age should at least learn enough to understand tech-oriented conversations more generally. But like you said…more relaxed, not entirely specific to devs.
Nonono, please no. …..
Thank you for giving such a clear answer/opinion! I'm serious - everyone else I've asked and presented options for names to has been wishy-washy, and given me some form of "meh, I like them all, they can all work I think". The HustleBuddies thing is admittedly - or would be - something of an effort to, you know, appeal to that whole 'crowd'. But it's funny because when I have thought of trying to appeal to a user base that would be attracted to something with the name "HustleBuddies", it's almost me trying to be more of a 'shark,' thinking about how I can meet people "where they are", and thinking "maybe what I identify with isn't what anyone actually wants". Maybe in the end it's me trying to be someone I'm not…more on this in a second…
I will say that I don't exactly want it to just be for quiet makers. Or, I don't want to only target indie makers who already have a good grasp on different tools and resources. I do want to try to capture those people who maybe just don't know where to start, and who, for example, might click an affiliate link to buy web hosting after watching a tutorial I make, etc. But at the same time, I don't feel absolutely comfortable with throwing "HustleBuddies" on a site and trying to scoop up every 'wantrepreneur' who's posting photos of Ferraris on their instagram, and tagging them with #entrepreneur. Maybe that would be good strategy, but…well, just look at your reaction to that name! We definitely draw associations from words, and I'm not wild about that name myself, which is why I've been a bit paralyzed about it. I do have part of me that's like, "meh, whatever, they're just words, people like saying 'hustle', maybe I shouldn't be so idealistic and just use it," but I'm also someone who has always had an extremely strong sense of self, even to a fault. I like carving my own path. I like doing what feels like me. And, to be honest, when I see the word "hustle" attached to something, I cringe a bit 😂.
Oh, and, as far as the "buddies" part…well I didn't think a ton about it to begin with. But I also had previously built an elaborate site on which people could have a profile, create groups, chat privately, display social links and "hustles"/interests in their profile, and search for people by those interests if they want to find a cofounder/project partner. Not the worst idea, but I definitely didn't validate it before I built it. If I do something like that again, I'm going to make sure people actually want that.
Anyway…my ultimate solution might be avoiding "hustle", avoiding a name with "maker" (I have a domain with that word in it too), and just choosing something more general. I'm working on multiple sites, so to begin with I just want this one to be a place where I can learn in public, organize resources, and not feel pressure to, erm, hustle. :)
By the way, thanks for taking the time to respond!
@alex Maybe it was a little naive of me to suggest you might be able to sell for more given all the work you put in. I say that in part because I used to talk a whole lot to someone who made/makes a substantial living off of building niche/affiliate sites of his own (while using a lot of black hat techniques), as well as buying and flipping sites. And he would often tell me about how salty people would be with him when he was trying to buy a site, because - to use his words - he was always "lowballing people and trying to get a deal." He had no shame about it. I almost respected how ruthless he was. I just don't know that I could be like that.
My respect is exactly zero for that kind of person, because it trivializes what I do, and floods the market with garbage. I know, he'll probably drive a Lamborghini while I vividly dream of the cheapest Tesla, but I don't care. :) We're each addressing a different audience, and want different things.
That sounds really great. I'll check out his stream if I'm around! I like dropping in to support people while streaming :)
👍
I will say that I don't exactly want it to just be for quiet makers.
I was talking with Sergio about a similar subject a few days ago, and to paraphrase him Target != Exclusivity. Targeting a certain kind of maker doesn't mean you're excluding others.
Maybe that would be good strategy, but…well, just look at your reaction to that name!
For me hustle sounds tacky. Only one thing is worse than hustle, and that is "side hustle" :D Buddies in my head sounds like something addressed to kindergarteners. And they make a weird combination, open to multiple interpretations.
But I also had previously built an elaborate site on which people could have a profile, create groups, chat privately, display social links and "hustles"/interests in their profile, and search for people by those interests if they want to find a cofounder/project partner.
Now I understand the reason behind the name HustleBuddies, but my opinion remains unchanged. :)
By the way, thanks for taking the time to respond!
Np, you're welcome. I could say the same.
@alina I know, he'll probably drive a Lamborghini while I vividly dream of the cheapest Tesla
I'll admit that I think about this kind of thing a lot. That is, sometimes I wonder whether I have to be less than idealistic to reach a certain level of financial success. I think all of this is too huge a topic to unpack here, but I spend a lot of time thinking about what enables individuals or even countries to advance most quickly economically. Unfortunately it often seems to involve pushing a product lacking in quality.
Target != Exclusivity. Targeting a certain kind of maker doesn't mean you're excluding others.
This is very true. There are many ways in which people can arrive at what you're offering. People who are resourceful are going to use/consume what they want to.
For me hustle sounds tacky. Only one thing is worse than hustle, and that is "side hustle"
XD This is interesting to me, how we all have varying reactions to words and meanings. Hustle doesn't sound tacky to me so much as…overused. And side hustle doesn't sound terrible to me, because I've gotten to used to hearing people say it. Maybe where I live has something to do with it too - I'm about a mile outside of Manhattan, so the language of hustle/side hustle etc. etc. is very common. And there are people in NYC like Gary Vaynerchuk - who's always talking about hustle - who are very popular. I can see his office from my window! Haha.
Np, you're welcome. I could say the same.
It's my pleasure!
@alex I'll admit that I think about this kind of thing a lot. That is, sometimes I wonder whether I have to be less than idealistic to reach a certain level of financial success. I think all of this is too huge a topic to unpack here, but I spend a lot of time thinking about what enables individuals or even countries to advance most quickly economically. Unfortunately it often seems to involve pushing a product lacking in quality.
True, this is yet another topic :) With individuals idk, it varies greatly. Countries I think they advance when they start thinking long term over short term and overall standards/wellness versus just a subset. Or maybe that goes for people too (at least to some extent)? Anyway, it's overly simplistic put…
XD This is interesting to me, how we all have varying reactions to words and meanings. Hustle doesn't sound tacky to me so much as…overused. And side hustle doesn't sound terrible to me, because I've gotten to used to hearing people say it. Maybe where I live has something to do with it too - I'm about a mile outside of Manhattan, so the language of hustle/side hustle etc. etc. is very common.
That is really interesting. Funny how we associate words… I'd be very curious about a project with polls on different word combinations :)
@alina With individuals idk, it varies greatly. Countries I think they advance when they start thinking long term over short term and overall standards/wellness versus just a subset. Or maybe that goes for people too (at least to some extent)? Anyway, it's overly simplistic put…
Can't be overstated how complex a topic it is, but at least with regard to individuals, yes, it varies, and even if there were some hard rule about financial prosperity, that doesn't account for, well, happiness, or whatever we might call it. You can definitely make money by compromising ethics or principles…but then there are plenty of rich and miserable/unfulfilled/soul-less people out there. That's what I do like about makers on average…everyone seems to think a bit more about why they're doing things, and there are more discussions about what success looks like when you define it for yourself.
I'd be very curious about a project with polls on different word combinations :)
This is a good idea! Maybe there needs to be a poll on recent buzzwords (hustle included), and a rating you can give them *"on a scale of one to ten, how irksome do you find this word?" Haha. And a comment section, too. Would be very interesting.
i can recommend this video from justin https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llGI3nQRA1E
Please sign in to leave a comment.