How makers stay productive

I think it's always a good sign when you would do what you're doing even without any money coming from it. And I'm shamelessly idealistic and optimistic, so I think influencing/changing the world is a solid goal for those willing to try.

I like the fact that even with just two answers in this thread (yours and @dehenne 's), both mention the meaning of what you're making. Sometimes I feel like we're in an era when a lot of business are doing things without questioning whether they should 😆 https://youtu.be/kY-pUxKQMUE

Creating a business that also can be a primary income seems like a common goal, and I think it's super reasonable to think in terms of one day scaling to bigger things. I'd say my goals are the same.

I know that there's sometimes a theme within the maker community of rolling solo, but I think that if you find the right person(s) - as it is with any relationship - working as a team can be extremely rewarding.

Building something to help people build something also seems very rewarding :)

I admire this :) At the end of the day, I hope most of what I do will help people live better lives.

1. Yes. Having a boss is for the birds. :)
2. I think you're already doing this! Makerlog helps people get things done, gets them in touch with others doing so, and might just help set them down a path they wouldn't have gone down. But otherwise, I hear you - I think the same way. Would be wonderful to change a life, or many.

I agree with Alex, the "Maybe it changed a life.", you already have that covered. Arguably bit more than just a "the slightest bit". :)

@alina thanks guys :)

Off-topic, but I think it needs to be said:

It's only been 4-5 years of me being my own boss, but I do have different view on it. It is a big deal because you're no longer directly trading your time for money. Time is limited, and that's why you can only reach a certain amount of income working for someone else, even if you work 9-5 every day. When you're your own boss you're basically in charge of how much you want to make since you're now trading efficiency + speed for money.

• Wake up when you want (schedule is still good)
• Listen to others, sure, but not as much as if you were working for someone else.
• Knowing laws and business is needed, but you learn those things along the road.
• If you don't like a client, raise their price until they leave you.

If you don't like a client, raise their price until they leave you.

best 😂😂

I agree it comes with a lot of responsibility - it's actually been a dream of mine to own a successful business one day… I want to get a minor in business or finance while I'm in college

Unfortunately my development skills are limited, my marketing skills are zero, and I tend to overthink rather than "just do".

I think this is a rather limiting mindset - elaborate?

@sergio It's not a limiting mindset, it's a limited skillset. And I said that I don't have enough skills in the context of building a successful scalable business.

1. I'm not (yet) a dev and I can't build a proper backend.

For better or worse my approach was very different in my first years, I had jobs and I was focusing on improving skills rather than learning new ones. I started with html, css, photoshop, illustrator and flash/animate and kept improving on them for the most part when I was an employee. Lots of time wasted, though I'm happy I got plenty of time for sci-fi reading. I miss that.

When I started to work on my own 6 years and 2 weeks ago I shifted my focus towards learning new things, I learned sass, WordPress dev stuff, some php, some javascript, included git in my workflow (at my job I didn't have that as web designer), basic devops as needed, managing my projects, my tasks and my time, and many other things in various degrees. Not to mention navigating legal stuff, accounting stuff and changing country of residence and do that all over again and in a different language I'm still learning.

Yet none of these acquired skills help building a backend.

2. Marketing, networking and reaching out. Here my skills stop at some occasional decent copywriting and a few emails sent to potential buyers. I'm clueless at marketing, I grew all my projects painfully slow, organically, with content, research and some basic SEO.

I can't do networking. I live in a city with strong startup culture, lots of events and meetups, but I don't go to any of them.

I suck at reaching out, I'm not good at communicating. And the fact that I don't do social media doesn't help either.

1. + 2. + other details lead to: 3. I need a partner/cofounder. Someone with complementary skills, with a similar view on the future of the business, with whom I can communicate openly and comfortably, but with enough differences between us that would encourage bouncing ideas, or even simply getting the motivation to go on, recover after a failed neuron synapse or share an evil laugh while planning to take over the world.

Up to some point you can do this with peers in a community environment like Makerlog, but that point is very limited. And that is not nearly enough.

I don't think there's anything wrong with saying you would work best with a cofounder. I know that among indie makers there's an inclination towards being a 'solopreneur' (Pieter Levels has had a lot to do with this notion permeating), but there's also a lot of potential in building something with another person, especially when their skillset is complementary. Unfortunately, though, finding a cofounder is more of an art than a science, and all you listed, which I think can be summed up as synergy, can be hard to come by (in any kind of relationship).

That said, I wouldn't say that you're limited unless you have a very specific idea of what you would like to build and simply can't. If you're dreaming of building something with an elaborate backend, but just can't go down that road yourself within a reasonable timeframe, that's one thing. But unless you want to build a hardcore SaaS product, there really is so much you can use…but again I think you know this, especially given your experience with the tools you mentioned. Makers love to talk about code and no code alike, but half the time what people make can be spun up with wordpress, some free plug-ins, and 20 lines of CSS for flavor…but that's not sexy, haha. Not to mention that I just made a generalization.

One point I will downright disagree with you on is you being bad at communication. You're definitely not. I like reading your responses here because they're articulate and genuine and have depth and are endearing because of that. And I think that when you're articulate, you pretty much just have to be more confident (talking to myself here, too, because I really struggle with this), and just broadcast yourself, so to speak. I think authenticity always plays, and that's only going to be the case more and more as brands/start-ups/businesses navigate the future.

I'm not articulating any of this too well because I'm about to rush to the gym, but I think that now I'm wondering about what kind of thing(s) you might like to build. I also want to say that I do relate to a lot of what you said, but at the end of the day I sort of hate relying on anyone - I haven't had good luck with people, haha.

@alex Indeed, I'm not at all ashamed to say that I think having a partner would be the better choice [for me] for a certain kind of project. I've come to this realization after 6 years of solopreneurship and one collaborator (ex-work colleague, collaborated on 2 projects a couple of years ago), so it's not a whim or a momentary thought.

I used to think that solo is better, too. That the "mythical" singular vision is the ideal. True, two people can't have the same vision completely. But come to think of it, you actually don't need it to be exactly the same because in time you'll tend to stagnate or just go round in circles in the same things. If the other partner just mirrors you, bouncing ideas becomes just a pat on each other's back, a validation of thoughts without being questioned or challenged. Same can be true for solos in the long term going unquestioned.

I'm still thinking about this "list", but this is what I got so far (randomly ordered):

• you need to have the same principles
• complementary skills
• be genuine, openly communicate
• a compatible workflow
• a similar general vision, but enough differences for both partners and the business to evolve

Unfortunately, though, finding a cofounder is more of an art than a science, and all you listed, which I think can be summed up as synergy, can be hard to come by (in any kind of relationship).

Yes, synergy, that's the best way to sum all up. Though I like to think it's like science, you can't just sit there and hope for a result to spontaneously materialize in front of you, you need to roll up your sleeves and do your (re)search, despite knowing that there's no guaranteed outcome.

Makers love to talk about code and no code alike, but half the time what people make can be spun up with wordpress, some free plug-ins, and 20 lines of CSS for flavor

Just… NO. :) I've been using WordPress as backend for years, but things like that make me shiver

One point I will downright disagree with you on is you being bad at communication. You're definitely not. I like reading your responses here because they're articulate and genuine and have depth and are endearing because of that. And I think that when you're articulate, you pretty much just have to be more confident (talking to myself here, too, because I really struggle with this), and just broadcast yourself, so to speak. I think authenticity always plays, and that's only going to be the case more and more as brands/start-ups/businesses navigate the future.

Thanks, that was pretty amazing to read. :) For me communication is a complicated subject…Yes, in writing like this I may open up especially if I'm very interested in the conversation. But the more direct the mean of communication, the more interaction it requires, the more exhausting it becomes for me. There are also weird quirks for example on short messages in chats my brain gets scrambled and blurts out stupidities. Maybe because I hit send too fast in my attempt to stay relevant to the discussion.

Broadcasting myself is new to me but to be honest it felt extremely good to be able to trust someone enough and just talk about stuff.

I think that now I'm wondering about what kind of thing(s) you might like to build.

That's confidential :D

@alina

so it's not a whim or a momentary thought.

That's what I figured. For some people (myself included), it can be an anxiety-fueled whim to think you need a cofounder. But for others (like you), it's something that's arrived at through experience and self-awareness.

I used to think that solo is better, too. That the "mythical" singular vision is the ideal.

Rambling a bit here, but I've been thinking about the entrepreneur/indie hacker/maker landscape a lot lately - at least insofar as it's visible online - and some interesting themes seem to wax and wane: that you should build a product/company alone; that traditional venture capital is bad; that 'sustainable' indie-made companies are the holy grail. The discussion around these topics ranges from possibly-prophetic to a bit arrogant and narrow. A lot of the indie-oriented perspectives also seem to overlook a lot of business models that aren't software/app based, too (ex: a consumer packaged goods company). But I guess everyone is always looking for their own way to process things. At any rate, it's easy to get caught up in all of this chatter and have a little bit of an entrepreneurial identity crisis (I'm projecting again, heh heh). But in the end, the truth is that nothing is black and white. There's no one way to go about entrepreneurship or building or coding (aside from being ethical, which I think people should be) - there's just the way that's right for the person/people in question.

But come to think of it, you actually don't need it to be exactly the same because in time you'll tend to >stagnate or just go round in circles in the same things. If the other partner just mirrors you, bouncing ideas >becomes just a pat on each other's back, a validation of thoughts without being questioned or challenged.

I think you're right. And I think this is part of what I mean when I say complimentary skill sets, or you could even say temperaments. A bit of positive friction keeps things from stagnating.

Though I like to think it's like science, you can't just sit there and hope for a result to spontaneously >materialize in front of you, you need to roll up your sleeves and do your (re)search, despite knowing that >there's no guaranteed outcome.

I agree! We can call it whatever we'd like, but it definitely comes down to putting in the effort and increasing your chances.

I've been using WordPress as backend for years, but things like that make me shiver

Do you mean relying on wordpress makes you shiver? 😅 I know that some people, when all is said and done, really aren't a fan. I have a bias because I can't code and have to be crafty, heh heh.

There are also weird quirks for example on short messages in chats my brain gets scrambled and blurts >out stupidities. Maybe because I hit send too fast in my attempt to stay relevant to the discussion.

I might have you beat here - I'm basically world class when it comes to saying awkward, weird things (and then metaphorically kicking myself for hours later as I think about it). But I think a lot of people actually have a pretty high threshold for quriks. 🙃

That's confidential :D

I won't pry! XD

@alex

For some people (myself included), it can be an anxiety-fueled whim to think you need a cofounder.

I've never totally rejected the idea of cofounding, but I didn't use to see any advantages to it. It complicates exponentially legal and accounting (depending on the location of each partner) and I didn't think it was worth it. Not to mention it's an added risk/variable, even if the cofounder is someone you know.

However, now things changed, what I want has changed. I want something that's well beyond my limitations and past projects I made. Yes, I can expand my skillset, I can learn to build a backend for example. But we all know how crappy our code is and how long even simple things take when we are beginners. So if I want a serious, stable, scalable business that won't require complete backend refactor after 3 months, I'll need a cofounder.

that you should build a product/company alone; that traditional venture capital is bad; that 'sustainable' indie-made companies are the holy grail.

I think no variant is universally bad or universally good. People tend to bash or praise things based on X other people doing that, without questioning or digging deeper. I root for indie sustainable because that gives you the chance to keep your vision and focus on build/product, while VC is almost always quick profit oriented (which can destroy a project incredibly fast). But that doesn't mean I close my eyes and ignore the successful projects that were VC founded. For some, it was the right choice.

Do you mean relying on wordpress makes you shiver? 😅

No, not relying on WP makes me shiver. I meant the practice you described with "wp + some free plugins + 20 lines of CSS for flavor". It might be acceptable for small projects made by beginners or non-coders, but otherwise for a serious business that is a definite no.

I might have you beat here - I'm basically world class when it comes to saying awkward, weird things (and then metaphorically kicking myself for hours later as I think about it).

For me it varies from a few seconds to a few weeks :))

I won't pry! XD

I was just joking. I don't have that magical idea… yet. I just know I want something I'd see myself doing long term. I'm completely tired of building and selling, I actually want to sell everything (with maybe one exception) and after that use my time to search for unicorns and cofounder. :)

@alina Sorry it's taken a bit for me to respond!

However, now things changed, what I want has changed. I want something that's well beyond my >limitations and past projects I made.

It sounds like you know what you want, which is more than a lot of people can say for themselves!

I think no variant is universally bad or universally good.

Agreed. I think a lot of people are trying to find their own way, and when it comes to entrepreneurship, things can be confusing/uncertain….and so I think it's easier for some people to think in black and white or take to whatever (x) person on twitter said. But of course the truth (at least about seeking or not seeking funding for businesses) is never black and white.

A strength of indie-made businesses to me, however - beyond the founder not being beheld to investors, and not having to rush the evolution of the business - is that indie-made businesses serve as great examples for everyone wanting to be an entrepreneur. They push aside language of venture capital and unicorns and revolutionary ideas and replace it with the idea that you should actually just MAKE something. I think that's a healthy thing in current culture, which tends to focus on the supposed flashiness/glamour of entrepreneurship. I may or may not be saying this after having looked at some popular entrepreneurs/investors on instagram, and all I could keep thinking was "sure, this is great, you're showing people what's possible, and how you have investments and are having fancy dinners with impressive people --- but you're not actually helping anyone START!". I've started working on a site that might actually help people get started, and take away their excuses :))

It might be acceptable for small projects made by beginners or non-coders, but otherwise for a serious business that is a definite no.

I think it's all about vulnerability. You can build pretty big things (at least brands…maybe not software/apps) with non-code tools, but in the end you're giving up control, and having faith that the tools you're using won't fail. That can become a scary thing if you have a lot of people depending on your product.

For me it varies from a few seconds to a few weeks :))

Fortunately I'm not terribly awkward on average. But when I am awkward/strange, I seem to have a knack for it 😂. Business idea: Strangeness As A Service 😝

I was just joking. I don't have that magical idea… yet. I just know I want something I'd see myself doing long >term.

Do you think that what you're really looking for is a business concept that addresses a problem/need that has a deeper meaning to you?

@alex

It sounds like you know what you want, which is more than a lot of people can say for themselves!

I have a general idea, but I'm still figuring things out :)

You can build pretty big things (at least brands…maybe not software/apps) with non-code tools, but in the end you're giving up control, and having faith that the tools you're using won't fail. That can become a scary thing if you have a lot of people depending on your product.

For me it's self-hosted or bust. The code has to be there to be endlessly tweaked and optimized. :)

When it comes to worries though, the biggest are actually for self-hosted. Established platforms or tools are stable, maintained by a lot of people, backed up by redundancies etc., while you might just screw everything in so many ways… :D

I've started working on a site that might actually help people get started, and take away their excuses :))

Oo, niice! Details please?

Fortunately I'm not terribly awkward on average. But when I am awkward/strange, I seem to have a knack for it 😂. Business idea: Strangeness As A Service 😝

My awkwardness mode is swiftly triggered without fail when I'm excited about something, or if I care substantially. One night a few weeks ago talking with somebody I actually found the best name for it: "deploy weird". I should trademark that… :)

Do you think that what you're really looking for is a business concept that addresses a problem/need that has a deeper meaning to you?

Yes. Without being something I care deeply about, chances are it won't be enough for me to want to do that long term.

@alina

I have a general idea, but I'm still figuring things out :)

Me too, and I'm trying to let the process of figuring things out be more fun than stressful (when I can help it)

For me it's self-hosted or bust. The code has to be there to be endlessly tweaked and optimized. :)

I feel this. I wish I knew enough for this to be the way I operate.

When it comes to worries though, the biggest are actually for self-hosted.

I'm not at all arguing with you, because I agree with this perspective. But it's funny because I think this might be a grass is greener type thing for some people. I've heard people say that the risk is in self-hosting, and some say that the risk is in using tools made by others and having to hope they maintain them. Again, not black and white; risks in everything I suppose. Unless you're a coding jedi 😆

Oo, niice! Details please?

Well, it's pretty simple. I started collecting lots of "maker" type resources into Airtable and tagging them/organizing them, because every time I want a tool - even though there are a ton of "maker tool"type sites - I can never find what I want easily. And if I search on product hunt, I have to figure out what's goood and what's not in a certain category, or how much something will cost.

So I'm putting all of these resources on a site, like a toolbox for entrepreneurs, and making all of the above very clear. I'd also like to review products, and basically just cut the time it takes to find resources (even if it's a more technical resource) down. I'd also like the site to be a place where I can aggregate all I'm learning about making, coding, entrepreneurship, raising capital (something I would like to learn more about, because there's a lot about venture capital and fundraising that I don't understand). I just want to make a damn good resource, first for myself because it will make things easier, and then for others if they find it useful.

Where I'm stuck right now, though, is in how I want to brand it/who I want it to be "for". Do I want to make it for makers, and try to bring non-makers into the fold so to speak? Do I want to try to reach all of the people out there who want to be entrepreneurs but don't know how to start/what to use/what they can do, and leave indie making out of it? I would say I'm overthinking it, but like you and I have talked about, I'm a little OCD when it comes to names/branding, because it determines how I think about what I'm doing, and even the energy/motivation I have for the project. I'm trying to decide between two names: one includes "maker", one is more generically business-related.

Jeez, I guess that wasn't so simple. Or, simple didn't mean NOT longwinded XD

My awkwardness mode is swiftly triggered without fail when I'm excited about something, or if I care substantially. One night a few weeks ago talking with somebody I actually found the best name for it: "deploy weird". I should trademark that… :)

This is meeeeeeee. I was just talking to someone about how I try to take an interest in the things other people are interested in if they're rambling about it to me, because I'm always near-manic and awkward when Im excited about things, and all I ever want in those moments is for someone to care/be interested, haha. YES - deploy weird, 100%

Yes. Without being something I care deeply about, chances are it won't be enough for me to want to do that long term.

Sometimes I think caring deeply is the #1 all-time productivity hack. Period.

@alex

I'm not at all arguing with you, because I agree with this perspective. But it's funny because I think this might be a grass is greener type thing for some people. I've heard people say that the risk is in self-hosting, and some say that the risk is in using tools made by others and having to hope they maintain them. Again, not black and white; risks in everything I suppose. Unless you're a coding jedi 😆

I was talking about "Established platforms or tools are stable, maintained by a lot of people, backed up by redundancies" being the lesser risk compared to self-host, not any tool. Of course that if you're using obscure tools that become abandonware the risk infinitely higher.

Where I'm stuck right now, though, is in how I want to brand it/who I want it to be "for". Do I want to make it for makers, and try to bring non-makers into the fold so to speak? Do I want to try to reach all of the people out there who want to be entrepreneurs but don't know how to start/what to use/what they can do, and leave indie making out of it?

Oh, the big questions phase :) What you said sounds good, can't wait to see the project live.

Sometimes I think caring deeply is the #1 all-time productivity hack. Period.

Yep, definitely, not just sometimes. Though it's also the fast track to exhaustion. For example I've been working on something I care deeply about, in fact so much so that I worked 10-14 hours/day for a few weeks (including weekends), I was just ecstatic. After 1.5 months I got so depleted some old health issues resurfaced, and I'm having a difficult time now. I had a few nightmarish days in pain and though they're gone, I'm only slowly recovering.

@alina

if you're using obscure tools that become abandonware

I've never heard the term "abandonware". Perfect word for it!

What you said sounds good, can't wait to see the project live.

I guess I've been getting tripped up on whether it should be for "makers", because I think small niches can be quite powerful. But at the same time there are so many entrepreneurs out there, outside of the maker community. Who I "target", at least theoretically - that's going to determine what I name it. Lately I've been inclined towards a more general entrepreneurship-oriented vibe. I feel like I often do my best work when I don't feel like I have to fit into any niche, but am just sort of going my own way, carving my own path.

Yep, definitely, not just sometimes. Though it's also the fast track to exhaustion.

Agreed agreed agreed. One of the things I like doing most is writing music, and when I've written music for different projects, I pretty much don't eat or sleep. I just go go go go, like I enter another dimension/the twilight zone. So balance is difficult. I'm sorry you've had/are having those issues. I've had some stress-related heath issues and it can get pretty scary. My first line of defense is to make sure I'm sleeping enough, and eating healthy…but it's a struggle.

@alex

I've never heard the term "abandonware". Perfect word for it!

It's a thing, I cannot take credit for it. :)

I guess I've been getting tripped up on whether it should be for "makers", because I think small niches can be quite powerful. But at the same time there are so many entrepreneurs out there, outside of the maker community.

You have the opportunity to get some of them "in". Surely I can't be the only maker that was out there for a long while, but got in when a good place for them was created. :)

One of the things I like doing most is writing music, and when I've written music for different projects, I pretty much don't eat or sleep. I just go go go go, like I enter another dimension/the twilight zone.

Yes, exactly, another dimension/the twilight zone. Sometimes I'm wondering if it's addictive. For me that's the only way I can disconnect and relax, and I'm flummoxed when I get out of it.

So balance is difficult. I'm sorry you've had/are having those issues. I've had some stress-related heath issues and it can get pretty scary. My first line of defense is to make sure I'm sleeping enough, and eating healthy…but it's a struggle.

Sorry you had issues too… For me it's nothing serious per se, some older gallbladder problems that give horrible stomach pain. But it's like you said, scary, because it triggers when I'm already exhausted, pain comes at night, lasts for hours a few days in a row, and it's just even more draining. I think that twilight zone makes me forget about what happens when I'm depleted :)

@alex I forgot to follow up on this. Did you find a name for your project? How is work progressing? Should we expect a big launch soon? :)

@alina I did! I'll tell you what it is when the site is more than a skeleton, and not in an embarrassing state 😏. Been copying what work I did do from another site I created with a different name, so it's been a bit slow.

Don't know that there will be any big launch, though - I think this might be more of a long game, slow build type project. And I want to keep pressure off of myself. So, just going to try to make it full of valuable info and tools, and organize it all in an optimal/helpful way; and I'll probably do some youtube videos and try to build some kind of social media presence to get a bit of attention.

@alex

Ooo but that's great news! Can you share the name, or will it be a secret until the launch?

I'll tell you what it is when the site is more than a skeleton, and not in an embarrassing state 😏.

No such thing as embarrassing state, just progress stage 😋

Don't know that there will be any big launch, though - I think this might be more of a long game, slow build type project. And I want to keep pressure off of myself. So, just going to try to make it full of valuable info and tools, and organize it all in an optimal/helpful way; and I'll probably do some youtube videos and try to build some kind of social media presence to get a bit of attention.

That's a good approach… Though I must say that my curiosity makes me impatient, I can't wait to see it live. 😄